David Berman interview by Spencer Mindell.
from Frequency Magazine's first issue.
I heard you were going to do a Peel Session
-Yeah, I was supposed to, but that didn't work out.
Just bad timing?
-I went over a month ago and did all this stuff and while I was there it
wasn't time and I wasn't in the mood to play guitar. It was sort of an
issue of whether it was the right thing
to do or not. So we didn't do it anyway.
Were you going to do it by yourself or with a band?
-I was going to do it by myself. I rarely want to play in front of other
people. Every once in a while I get it in my mind that I will. It's just
as likely that I'll change my mind on the day.
Do you think you'll come around to it some day?
-I guess it doesn't seem (Peel Sessions), you know, the name is
important. When you think about it it just sounds good: "Ah yeah, we got
a Peel Session under our belt". But what is it? Just another recording
that's done quicker. You either do a version of an old song in a new way
or you do maybe a new song. I don't know, i guess it would be nice to
say that I had a Peel Session.
I've been reading your stuff in the Baffler over the last year and a
half. In the last issue (Winter 96) there was an excerpt from your
longer project, "Cantos for James Michener". How's that going?
-It was going really good. I took a break from it for a while. It's fun.
For some reason, it's really fun to write. But I have not been working
on that since August. It's something I want to finish. I'd like to keep
it separate from the other things, like if I could have a book of just
those, that would be real great.
If the day ever came, how would you go about getting it out? Would it be
just a small printing thing?
-Every time I think about publishing a book I'm pretty sure that I
would wait, if i could, to get it on a big press. It's important for me,
for the writing, not to get buried somewhere. So I would wait. Even if I
was fifty, if that's how long it would take to be able to publish it
somewhere where it would get out. I would never give it to whatever the
Drag City equivalent in the publishing industry.
I read your piece on the back of the Scud Mountain Boys' Pine Box LP.
Have you ever thought about just throwing in some of your writing with,
say, your next release?
-That would be cool. But I want to keep them separate. You know a couple
of months ago I went over to England to do these readings and I felt
later that that was a mistake even though I had fun. I lost sight of my
original vision which was that I would keep the music and the writing
separate. I think they diminish each other. If you're a musician and
people know you as a musician and hear that you are a writer, they think
its just something your dabbling in. On the other side, if people are in
the literary community and they find out you're a musician, they
diminish each other. People don't take it seriously. It becomes
something like: "Oh, this is his hobby. It's something he does to pass
the time." They sense there is a lack of commitment in it, or something.
So if I ever had a book I would never write on the back of it, you know,
member of a band.
So do you occupy your in between time with writing? What's between
writing and recording?
-I take it as it goes. I can sense what i should be doing any particular
week or month. Sometimes I need to have that emotional expression that
music gives me, other times I want to shut that down. I think the kind
of writing that I do is less true to my life and less of an outlet for
biographical description. So if i want to close that part of myself up,
just block that tunnel to the outside world out, then I'll write. You've
got to just take your psychological temperature once in a while. You
just know when you wake up in the morning whether to pick up a pen or
play a guitar.
Or drop out of school. But that's me. You were doing graduate studies...
-Yeah, I was. I was at the University of Massachusetts for a while
getting my M.F.A. and it was something that when I was about 24 I
applied to this program because I was really enamored with this writer
up there named James Tate. I wanted to just learn from him. To do that I
got into this M.F.A. program and Found out I could go up there for three
years and not work. It was great. That's what I did. I was able to write
songs without having to have a job. It was a great time. I didn't go up
there to get a degree. I haven't used it in any way. It was more of an
opportunity to kill time.
So that was in Northampton right?
-Yes
Is that where you hooked up with New Radiant Storm King and the Scud
Mountain Boys?
-That's where I met them. The singer from the Scud Mountain Boys was
also in that same writing program.
A few recording sessions went into this newer album. You had a bit of
trouble finding the right sound. Did you use the same songs? Were you
trying to find the right sound with the same songs, or did you switch it
all around?
-I rewrote some songs and I discarded some songs. It was finding the
write feeling , you know. I had a hard time. I went to record the record
and i could not concentrate. I couldn't really figure out what i was
doing, you know, going through the motions. Well, it's a year later and
it's time to record another record. I always have a backlog of songs.
There's like ten or twelve and I'll cut out everything after that. I had
some songs and I thought, well, they just needed to be recorded. I
hadn't really thought that you had to be in the right frame of mind.And
when I realized I wasn't, I just needed to go home and be disappointed
in myself. I had to go back and say "Well, what the fuck are you going?"
and remind myself that the reason to record; what the point is. I
remember it was because I wanted to speak to people. Eight months later
I went and recorded again. I asked some new people, partly out of just
embarrassment. I didn't want to obligate people to follow me into what
could be another failure.
Why did you record the new album in Connecticut of all places? Were you
living in Northampton at the time?
-Well, no. I had been living in Virginia for about a year and a half. I
knew a friend who worked at the studio, said it was professionally
equipped for the money. You could stay there if you wanted to. I sort of
had a fascination with Hartford, having never been there, as one of
those mysterious business cities on the East Coast. Like Bloomington,
Delaware.
Like a Mandatory City.
-Yeah. Visiting it cured me.
I noticed on the new album you have an emphasis on certain words. Do you
have little thoughts that fall onto the paper subconsciously?
-I almost never sit down to write about anything. I try to let myself
surprise myself. I try to pick the things that are surprising but seem
inevitable. They're not just strange for strangeness sake. They are just
certain themes that are running through my life at a certain period.
Someone asked me why the word cum shows up three times. Those songs that
were written about two years ago, I had gone back to visit this
elementary school that I went to for a couple years when I was a kid. I
was just walking down the halls, and the one thing that struck me, as I
was just walking down the halls, was the word cumbucket, which people
used to throw around alot. It was a word that would just stick in my
head as I walked home from school, repeating it over and over again:
Cumbucket. I like the way it sounded. And I liked the particular image
of this bucket of cum with it slopping over the sides. It just
reactivated that word for me. Then I was in Europe, walking by this
ladies clothing store in Vienna. It was called "Cum" and it was a very
classy store right in the middle of an expensive neighborhood. So I took
a photo of it. It just kept coming around.
Back to where you went to High School...was that in Texas?
-Well, I was born in Virginia and grew up here (Virginia). We moved to
Central Ohio for a while and then I moved to Dallas.
That's pretty random.
-It was good for me. I never really felt home. I never was comfortable
enough to become wallpaper.
You were seen at the Drag City booth at the Indie Rock Flea Market in
Charlottesville this summer drawing profiles of people.
-Dan (Koretsky) and Ryan (Murphy) from Drag City had come for this flea
market. I went with them, but I didn't really have a function. Dan had
the idea that we could make some spare change by doing these drawing for
2$. It was great for me, because I like to draw, and the more I do it,
the better I get. By the end of the day, it seemed I was drawing better
than I ever had. It seemed like people were getting off on it. I was
trying not to make them too insulting.
Do you help out with Drag City much? Do You work with other people on
the label?
-Sometimes, a little bit. Just now when you called I was writing
descriptions for the new catalog. Its sort of fun, so I'm just doing a
couple descriptions for each record.
And you can't avoid the inevitable Silver Palace question. Is anything
going to come out or does it remain a really good idea to work with?
-No, I don't think anything is going to come out of it. It seems like a
good idea but at a certain point , the reality of a collaboration is
always more disappointing than you want it to be. I can't think of any
collaborations that were any better than the people who collaborated's
individual work. I don't think think it would mix very well. But it was
a good idea.
Are you still writing songs for other bands, or other people?
-Yeah. There's a guy who lives here, an old friend of mine, Gate Pratt,
who I write songs for. He usually plays about once every other week at
this local club. About once a month he'll play a song that I wrote for
him. But he's about it right now.
Are you aware of your presence on the World Wide Web? Have you come
across Scott Caligan's Joo's page, "The Reef"?
-I am actually. My girlfriend saw it. She works at the library at the
university. I don't know how she found it but she showed it to me and it
was great. I was really happy about it. I didn't know that anyone had
gone to that kind of trouble.
Why don't you put out 7"s anymore? There hasn't been one since your
split with New Radiant Storm King and that was 94.
-I was just thinking about those the other day. Actually, I don't like
7"s anymore, though I don't know why. For some reason they just seem so
disposable. I can't imagine ever putting out another 7" ever again.
There is just so many of them. It just seems like a guaranteed way of
burying your music unless you have some intention of putting out a
collection of 7"'s on a CD. I don't know. It's funny you ask that
because i was just thinking about that the other day. Why am I so turned
off by 7"s? Even when I get one I don't really want to listen to it. I'm
so disappointed in them as a format. Its ineffable, I cannot explain
why. I used to live for them and love them. For a couple years all I
bought were 7"'s.
From your first 7", The Dime Map of the Reef, to now, at what point
between did you decide to go to the studio?
-I guess the Dime Map and the Arizona Record were all recorded at the
same time, but released a year apart. So when we went to do Starlite
Walker it had been two years since we recorded that stuff. In that two
years there really didn't seem to be any question that recording outside
a studio; with the sounds that we could get with our skill level on a
four track or tape recorder, were not good enough. It didn't seem to
appeal to us. We had done that. It was fun for a while. We recorded alot
of stuff on four-track that's sort of in between the quality of the
Arizona Record and Starlite Walker that was never really released. It
was just time to do it. As far as we knew, we were just
going to make one other record and that would be it, and we wanted to do
it for real.
It was a good choice. Even though there was alot of good, buried stuff
on the seven inches and the EP, the studio manages to bring the sounds
to light.
-I liked that early stuff, but it had it's place and its time.
What about playing live? From what I have heard, you've played live
twice.
-In the Silver Joo's we've played live (1..2..) three times. We played
live as the War Comet once. And then in college I played live about 10
or fifteen times.
With Ectoslavia back in the days?
-Yeah.
I heard those (Ectoslavia) songs on the Challenged Landscape
Compilation. Interesting stuff. Very sonic.
-Yeah. That's what it was. We would just play around here
(Charlottesville) and in Richmond. We even played Blacksburg once or
twice. It was just a bunch of noise. But yeah, I haven't played live in
about three years now.
I guess you don't much plan on it?
-No
I've heard you don't like playing songs once they've been recorded?
-That's part of it but that's a small reason. I just don't. It's not
true to myself. It's not who I am. I am not the type of person that
plays live. I'm not performer.
I guess its giving yourself.
-I just don't feel comfortable on a stage. I could do it but it would
have to fake my way through it. I don't want to adopt a pose which is
what I would have to do.
Pleasing fans that were expecting to be pleased.
-Yeah. It's just something I don't really plan to do. I used to say
'Yeah, in the future once I get over my hang up". But then i realized my
perspective on playing live is perfectly okay. It's just that people
used to try and convince me that there was something wrong with the way
I was looking at it. But then I realized, no, that it was just not right
for me.
What's the deal with Frank Black? Is there truth to that story or was
that just a play around?
-No that was a true story actually. They wrote an article about it in
Melody Maker which is pretty much true.The only thing was that maybe
they exaggerated. I didn't get arrested. I got detained by the police
but was never arrested.
I take it you were a big fan of Frank Black and the Pixies.
-I was at one point. I wasn't a fan of his but when I went to him to ask
him to record...It's sort of like I'm not a big fan of what Paul Leary
does in the Butthole Surfers anymore. I was a big fan at one time and I
would like to have him produce something because I think that if I don't
like the way he writes songs anymore, I still believe in the way his
songs sound. The way he made his songs sound at a time. So I would ask
someone to produce a Silver Jew's record who's music I didn't
necessarily respect anymore. I don't think I would ask someone to play
on a record if I felt that way.
Couldn't much imagine Frank Black playing on a Silver Jew's record.
Eight vocal track overdubs would be kind of funny sounding.
-Yeah.
I've never noticed production as a focal point or even much of a deal at
all beyond your jump from home recording to studio.
-It isn't. Mainly because I don't know anything about it. Sometimes I
have been tempted to work with someone who could translate certain
metaphorical idea's, descriptions of how i would like to sound, who
could do what I wanted. Luckily, the people who I have just accidentally
worked with, whether it was the engineers at the two studios, they've
been able to do that. But I was never sure of that when I went in.
Whether they would enforce a sound on the record that I couldn't prevent
because I didn't have the words to describe what I wanted.
Bridging Technicalities with Ideas.
-Yeah. If I could get Paul Leary to produce, which I could never afford,
and be able to explain why certain things sound, why things on "Hairway
to Steaven" appeal to me so much. He could explain to me why they sound
that way, and I would learn. I could hopefully steal some of that
because I think that is one of the best sounding records I have ever
heard.
What's happening next?
-Every time I finish a record, when I'm done, my feeling is : That's it,
I don't want to do it anymore. Not out of disgust or anything but
feeling rather, okay, I've said my piece. And that's where I am right
now. It always remains to be seen whether a couple of months down the
road I'll change my mind. I mean I have songs and I don't want them to
just disappear or never get used. I don't know what will happen to them.
Maybe you could lend them out.
-Yeah, but at the place I am now, I'm not even at the planning stage.
I'm just sort of thinking that I've done something and I'm not sure if
I'll make anymore records.
It would be a shame if you stopped. At least from here.
-We'll see. I'll have to wait, probably until springtime whether I'll
know for sure whether I'm gonna make another record.
When you put a song together, what do you put an emphasis on first? Is
it the guitar or the words? On the new album I notice the strum as the
backbone of the entire album.
-Music always comes first when the song is written. Then I just put the
words on top of it.
What kind of books have been occupying your eyes of late.
-I read alot of books. Right now I am reading a book called the "Western
Cannon" by Harold Bloom. It's a book of literary criticism in a way, but
he's just talking about his version of what the literary cannon would
be. I just read this book of short stories by Gary Lutz called "Stories
in the Worst Way" which really blew me away. I read alot of mostly
fiction, short stories. John Ashbery, he's a poet I really love, I've
been finishing alot of his stuff and he's got around 16 or 17 books. I
read alot of biographies. Just anything. I read around two or three good
books a week.
I'm stuck reading two or three books worth of bad turns in Canadian
literature.
-I don't even know...what is Canadian Literature?
Nothing. Margaret Atwood. I don't know how much it exists. (blah-here)
Have you ever been out to the west cost? Only because aspects of your
music seem timeless, but over on the Westcoast everything seems like
contemporary slop.
-I think about it alot. I really want to go. I'd love to see L.A. and
spend some time there. I'd like to find out what it is about it that
repulses people. Anything that can stir up such strong reactions I'm
gonna wanna go and see for myself. I wanna see it before it falls in the
ocean.
I've always thought it would implode. There's no other means to an end
to L.A.
-
I haven't seen a Baffler around for about 6 months now. Is that pretty
much done with?
-No. I don't really stay in much touch with them. They call. They
haven't called since that last time you mentioned. I don't know if they
didn't want anything or whether they just haven't gotten around to do
another issue.
Is your writing anywhere else around?
-There is another journal in New York called "Open City" that I gave
some pieces to. But not really anything else though that I can think of
off the top of my head.
I just had a scary vision of opening up a Harper's one day and seeing a
piece about the H3NO4 Indians.
-That'd be good.
You did a piece called "The History of the Silver Jews" and near the end
there was a line... "If your lucky you might find two sweat bees fucking
on a coke mirror". Where does it come from?
-I don't know. Like I said, it surprises me sometimes. It just pops out.
You might just be sitting around. I have a little mirror you get at a
county fair with a picture of Led Zeppelin, the guy with the wings
that's always on the label on the inside of the record. You might just
be thinking about doing lines on it and then a bee might knock against
the window. You never know. It's just a process of basic, unlikely
things. You know, putting them together.
It's refreshing. So much stuff written has been written before, and
reading your stuff it's nice to see some people with their own.
---
Now I emailed Dan at Drag City and he wrote that he has kept copies of
your live performance at the 1993 Drag City Invitational (in Chicago)
under wraps and might one day release them. Would you be OK with that?
-Yeah. Some of the songs came out good. As a whole show I don't think
it would sound good. But there's a couple of the songs on there that
would work as releases.
Were there songs not released before?
-A cover song we did. Cocksucker Blue's by the Stone's. And the Walnut
Falcon from
our first seven inch. Those two songs you could rescue from that tape
and release.
Too bad it would only go on a 7" and I suppose there is no home for
that.
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